[2020 KF Korea Workshop: Hwang Doo-jin]

YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1Paaat_vE

EAI, in collaboration with the Korea Foundation (KF), is holding the [2020 KF Korea Workshop] to enhance understanding and foster empathy towards Korea among foreigners residing in Korea. The [2020 KF Korea Workshop] consists of the following three clusters: Cluster E (External & Domestic Affairs), Cluster A (Arts & Culture), and Cluster I (Industry & IT).

As the first session of Cluster A of the [2020 KF Korea Workshop], a lecture on "Korean Architecture" was given by CEO Hwang Doo-jin. Following the lecture, the Q&A session was a productive time with active inquiries and discussions on modern Korean architecture and traditional architectural elements.

Video Script

it's very nice to meet you all this episode and actually uh my talk today had to compete with the beautiful weather outside uh so many of you with me online right now so i'm very proud and thank you for attending my talk the title of my talk this afternoon is korean architecture and spatial flexibility it's about an inspiration that we can get from traditional korean architecture i hope you will enjoy my talk would you please turn on the powerpoint thank you the comments around the picture in the middle are

what i very frequently heard from the professors who are visiting architects when i was an architect student back in early 1980s in korea spread your arms to touch both walls it's about human scale with traditional korean houses which we call hanoi as you probably know are being young and quite cocky and anti-establishment just like any other students uh i didn't really fully accept this comment because i thought well if you build a small house in concrete you can still spread your arms to touch

both walls it's not specifically about home other comments such as for a desk and any room will become a study or a table and it will become a dining room a bed will turn any room into a bedroom you can use it as a tea room as well so all these comments about how hanoi changes his function which we architects are sometimes called programs all the time but again i was very skeptical about these comments as well because and it's not really about hanukki's self it's about something else and i kind of wondered why all these

professors and visiting architect has to say things like this because at the time i thought these were just full of uh what we normally call these days which we can translate it as national pride and as i became a professional architect and started to gain more experience in actual design and construction of real buildings i look back at these comments again and try very hard to understand why these comments had to be made when i was student and then slowly little by little i started to understand

what was important was not probably just the architecture itself but the way we use it especially in regard to furniture and equipment look at these pictures and you can tell much of traditional furniture that our ancestors the old time koreans used were actually quite small look at the dynamite which we can which we call subban so actually for just one person and you don't really go to a dining room for a meal you just stay in your own room and somebody either your mother or housemate or a servant will take it to your room

so it's very small and mobile look at the picture of the ring on the right it's again very small so all these furniture and you can mix again including the dress hanger at the bottom left and traditional folding screen and also traditional bedding in the picture on the far right all these furniture and equipment are really quite mobile because they are lightweight very flexible and space safety so probably because of this extremely mobile and lightweight and small quality it was possible for korean hanukks

to have very high level of spatial flexibility that's what i have noticed and recognized the architecture itself also has to come up in this game of attaining high level of flexibility in a living environment uh look at these two pictures uh these are actually uh one of our past projects uh called echihan it's in seochon the area to the west of pyeongchang palace i'm sure you probably know about this area quite well many years ago about seven or eight years ago a very young couple men and women they visited our office you can see them

in the middle of the picture on on the top and they were engaged so they were about to be married soon and in preparation for the wedding they bought a very old and very deliberate al almost abandoned hanok in the and they asked us to renovate this house into their uh into their home which we did and the picture on the button left a button right is the finished house what you can notice here in the picture in the button right is the presence of big hanging doors above the uh in front of the main

living room area of hanok these uh these hanging doors which you call sabna moon in uh in korean uh it can also be translated as flying doors that's normally the term that i use because i love it i love the the feeling of the world so these flying doors are really about the way we use the space in a very flexible way during the winter you can close it you can lower it and you can unfold it and it becomes four leaf doors and then during the summer or when the weather is really nice like today you can fold it and lift them up just

like this so architecture also had its role in creating a living environment that's highly flexible as you can tell so this is another example of flying doors this is at a six-star hotel called seamark which is in gangnam city of gangnam to on the east coast of korean peninsula this very luxury hotel has an hanok annex and the main building was designed by an american architect named richard meyer he is a global superstar architect and our office was commissioned to design the hanukkah next for the hotel and this is the picture of

that part of the hotel which we call ho anje and again in this picture you can see the presence of two flying doors this time the doors are in inside the house not outside so by using this kind of doors we can control the way we use spaces depending on different circumstances so all these things add up to the the net effect of creating and living in an environment that really caters to our changing needs back in traditional times sometimes our ancestors the old koreans really went very far and they designed such a very elaborate

system of doors and windows and you see one of the examples here and this is a combination of sliding doors and swing doors and i took this picture at a very famous traditional residence called myeongdyegoteb which is in non-sun in namdoo and we call this angoji moon in in korean language but uh probably in english i would say the best way to put it is sliding sliding and swing door the way it works is actually quite interesting the two leaves in the middle they slide open and slightly close but two leaves on the

outside they're spindles so when you uh want to completely uh open all the doors all leaves what you can do is you slide the middle leaves to both sides and not just the doors but also the door frames they swing open so you can you can this way you can connect two adjoining rooms as if they are one single connected space so what we can say from these pictures is that mobility of function equipment when it is combined with architectural changeability together they work together to create to achieve very high level of spatial

flexibility and this is the main theme of my talk today uh the net result of uh living in such a living in uh in this kind of living environment with a very high level of spatial flexibility is that even a very small house can accommodate surprisingly large number of people this is a very small hanok in bukchon probably you uh many of you already know the area or already visited the area it's one of the best tourist spots in the entire country and the name of this house is sangije and it's only 49 kilometers big so it's

a very small house but before we also renovated this house this is one of our projects which we did about 15 years ago and the owner was a young lady and she told us a very interesting story when she first visited this house in order to start the negotiation to bite she noticed that three generations of family members were living inside this very small house so this is what spatial flexibility can do for you because of the the very versatile way of using spaces depending on different situations this kind of small house can

accommodate surprisingly a large number of people we will look at uh a different aspect of architecture from now uh more generic more global uh aspect of architecture not just korean traditional architecture but you'll kill another picture of probably the most famous and most influential uh residential architecture of 20th century this is villa savourd designed by the famous swiss french architect called leukovisia this was built in 1929 uh 10 years after the spanish flew and lucrezia was uh very obsessed with

hygiene so i don't have the slide here today but uh in the middle of the entrance lobby of this house he placed a toilet sink the idea is when you immediately after you enter your house you wash your hands and he did this because they learned a lot during the the spanish flu pandemic i mean just as we learn a lot from the current curvy 19 fandemic so that's one of the very interesting features of this house but the reason why i'm showing you this picture is this particular house really represent

a very big trend in contemporary architecture which we call functionalism we are still living under the influence of this very influential and important architectural theory but in retrospect from the vintage vantage point of 21st century uh the way lucrubisia approached and formulated this uh theory was somewhat outdated from our contemporary point of view because when he probably first published his idea about functionalist architecture he wrote a book called verona which in which is in french and it means

toward an architecture and he he compared the contemporary automobile design of at the time to classical greek temple architecture and his point was that if we study very carefully about the way engineers design automobiles and airplanes at that time we can probably uh create something very classical in spirit which is comparable to this classical architecture from the greek period but if you look at these two pictures of the automobiles in the bottom you can tell they are really old-fashioned so from historical perspective

this very uh idea of functionalist architecture it took place at the dawn of machine age at the time the machines were very bulky it was big and they really needed very strong formal language but now in the 21st century when we say contemporary high technology we normally refer to the the objects or the way things work which were often very immaterial you can hardly see them i mean for example take a look at a wi-fi machine they're so small these days they are actually smaller than your hand but it allows you to be connected to

the rest of the world through internet so the high technology of these days they are not really they don't really need formal language to to use them or to design around them and they're so lightweight and they're so small and they hardly occupy any space at all so what that means is that even though we still continue to live in the functionalist uh world the way we approach it these days could be a little different from the time lucrezia worked as an architect so i came up with an idea of rewriting global

architectural history is my personal version you don't get to see this in any of the books this is a very original on my own the invention so to speak uh if i write a a book on history of global architecture i would use the framework of the relationship between buildings and machines oh and the key word i like to i love to use is plumbing because plumbing actually is wiring and piping but they represent how machines interact with buildings for example the majority of global architectural history

and many buildings belongs to what i call pre-plumbing area and all those beautiful catholic cathedrals renaissance and baroque buildings and greek and roman buildings they all belong to this category they are pre-modern and these buildings were built and designed and built before the advent of the machine age so so in other words they didn't have any kind of relationship with any kind of machine so if you go to notre dame cathedral in paris for example now the building is equipped with contemporary technology but it was

the result of the number of renovations that took place after 19th century but during the 13th century or 14th century immediately after the building was built didn't have any air conditioning probably had very minimal means of heating no communication equipment whatsoever no internet of course so in other words these buildings that belong to this pre-plumbing era they're just about spacing structure but the whole thing started to change sometime around 19th century and early 20th century because architecture started to be

integrated with the martian age and this is the era that i call pro plumbing because he loves plumbing he loves machine you want to be incorporate with machines and we are still living in that historical era in my in my opinion so this refers to modern and contemporary architecture in general it's about combination of architecture machine and it's about the way buildings use energy and it's about the way buildings are connected to infrastructure of our society such as the underground tunnels sewage system electric system all kinds

of things so i mean this really belongs to the functionalist architecture which lucrobizier wrote about in his book but in the 21st century where we are now the whole thing started to change again because we are seeing more and more cases in which architecture is integrated with latest high technology that are often invisible in material very small doesn't really occupy a lot of spaces around them as i mentioned before so i would say this post plumbing era architecture really is the architecture of the future

and many buildings these days they generate their own energy using solar panels and geothermal uh the energy generation and all that and it's getting highly integrated information system as well so this really is first functionalism architecture and it is a uh the result of the advanced machine age the time that we live in right now so with this kind of historical perspective in our minds when we look back on the early 21st century hanong renaissance which is still taking place uh there are a few things that we can

say about it in retrospect i remember it was about 2000 uh that's the year that i started my practice and at first i didn't have any intention to work on hanok projects i considered myself as a typical contemporary architect and i still do that and hanno practice has become a very special part of what i do as an architect but in retrospect sometime around 2000 uh more and more people started to be interested in traditional houses and people actually bought them and renovate them and started to live in them and

for someone like me who grew up in 1970s and 80s as a young student the whole thing came to me as a shock because as a student we learned that it's a good thing to study about hanoi and to get inspirations from hanok but never uh think about hanok as an actual uh the architectural practice because these are things of the past that's exactly what we learned at school but as i just said around the turn of the millennia people suddenly started to be interested in traditional korean architecture and i

became part of the change and from the historical perspective which i just explained we can say that hanog is a very typical pre-plumbing typology the majority the very concept of hanok was invented and practiced well before the advent of machine age because hanukkah has been formulated for such a long time before the modernization period so essentially it was a very pre-modern pre-plumbing prototype but all of a sudden around the turn of the millennia it started to be evolved to incorporate all these elements

of not just pro-plumbing architecture but postponing architecture as well as you can see in this picture very interesting picture again this is edgy hon the same house that you saw in the previous pictures and the couple on the right they are actual owners they kind of volunteered to be in the pictures and very very nice people and this is the way they use their hano this was totally unthinkable even early 1990s because the the concept of watching movie using video projector at your home i think it started to come to us

sometime around 2004 2005 so this is a very new thing but you can actually do this you can actually turn your hanok into a movie theater because video projects project is normally quite small you can all you need to do you just hook it up to your laptop and there you go bala you have a movie theater so the whole mission of hano renaissance can be turned into a single mission statement how to accommodate contemporary lifestyle in an essentially pre-modern prototype and that's exactly what i have been doing and what i have

been trying to to contribute to the picture on the left shows the hard reality of more than a contemporary hanok renovation on the outside it gives you a very nice looking feel very old traditional look and feel but once you open the closet door it's filled with machines wi-fi machines home security machines of course uh air conditioning and the heating and clean kind of thing but they are so nicely integrated so from the outside you don't really feel the presence of all these machines but they're there because without them

you cannot have contemporary lifestyle in this old pre plumbing pre-modern typology we're living in a very interesting time in history because we are witnessing many social changes that are very closely related to the the changes and development development in in in contemporary technology such as this these are a few examples of what i call hybrid spaces uh picture on on the top left is a small cafe in a bank building and a building called capital one i think is somewhere in the united states but we call this type a shopping shop

typology so it's a shop within a bigger shop so cafe in a bank which is very commonplace these days and the picture on in the middle and on the right uh on the left is a home office on the right is an office cafe an interesting thing these days is homes are more and more becoming like offices and offices are more and more like cafe are the homes because many offices now have kitchens and cafeterias just like homes and many homes are now becoming a place where you not only just live or work especially

during this curvy 19 pandemic a picture on the bottom left is a library hotel in in tokyo it's a place called book and bed bamb it's probably a parody of airbnb bed and breakfast basically it's a bouquet in bed and coffees a lot of people choose to work in in cafes instead of offices as we call these places coffees coffees so all these hybrid spaces again shows the way people use spaces in a very flexible way so it is a lot many common things with the way we used to use our hanok in the old days well i'm not saying

the entire world owes korea for having this kind of highly flexible uh way of living i'm just saying that we can find the same thing the same thing in our traditional korean architecture but i think things always happen to come back in history so what happens in the old days will happen again in the future so the special the flexible way of using spaces is now again with us big time uh a few years ago this kind of um a place was very common especially in the gangnam area in seoul during the daytime the place is an

automobile service center as you can see in the picture on the left but after the dawn the service center is closed and the whole place suddenly turns itself into a restaurant outdoor restaurant as you can see on the picture on the right how is this possible i think looking at this kind of instant business conversion somebody at korean tax service is probably not quite happy i don't know how they process the tax issues in a business like this what kind of place is this from a text text collector's point of view

is this a car service center or restaurant but from architectural point of view which i have been uh talking about this kind of thing can take place this kind of thing can be possible not just because of the architecture of the place itself but again because of the furniture that they use look at those furniture they all the chairs are all stackable and in this kind of restaurant they serve you know the korean bbq and korean beef stew and things like that but they don't have wiring and they don't have plumbing what they have is

what we call brewster it's a mobile gas stove so what i try to tell you is that with this kind of highly flexible and mobile and lightweight furniture and equipment you can instantly change one place to another in a very easy and comfortable way again thanks to the uh the contemporary technology i mean we take we we tend to take all these things very uh as granted because you are so familiar with them but from a bigger historical point of view these are all the result of highly efficient development in technologies

smart isn't it i say smart because this way you can use one physical place for two different purposes depending on different time of the day and it's about efficiency it's about the way we use our cities the way we design our cities normally many places in the cities that we live in they are designed and built for just one single purpose so offices are normally empty during the evening and during the night of course we koreans tend to work long hours that's an exception but homes are normally empty during the daytime

but if you combine them then you can probably come up with a much more efficient way of using physical spaces than we do now so again we can learn great lessons and inspirations from the way we build and design and live in traditional hanok that's the point of my lecture today but as i said uh maybe koreans were not the only ones to do this i mean of course there are many many examples of people trying to come up with an idea of designing buildings that can be used for different uh programs and functions

uh for example this is a very famous icon of modern architecture designed by german architect named miss van der rohn this is in chicago as part of the illinois institute of technology campus this crown hall the name of the building is crono and this was the building that houses a departmental architecture of that academic institution miss banduro was very interested in creating a space that can be used for different purposes just like what i'm talking about today and he applied the same concept into

this small house and again in i think it's in in illinois as well it's called fosworth house after the name of the owner he he used the term a universal space for this kind of design but his ideas didn't really work quite well because looking at a look at the plan of the crown house crown hall didn't really have any partitions at all one part of the building is the lecture hall the other part is a design studio but when you give a lecture just like what i do now you you you create noise you create

sound but when you work in a design studio you want to work in a quiet and comfortable space and these things they started to fight against each other so as a result of that this beautiful architectural concept of universal space didn't really work quite well in in the practical way but if we use this building these days the whole thing can be worked out because now we can use this kind of high technology gadgets directional speakers that allows you to send your voices in just one direction so you happen to be in the other part of

the space you don't hear it and lecturers they can wear a wireless microphone and headset so they can speak very softly they don't need to raise their voices either so all these high-tech small mobile gauges when they are combined with buildings designed and built on the base of universal space or flexible space they can do a miracle a single building can turn it into many different things again it's about the conservation of energy conservation of building materials conservation of time because you don't

have to move around that much and these are the things that that i'm very interested in these days so sometimes building can be turned into something quite different such as this too all the christian churches have turned into libraries and nightclubs all over the world so with that kind of framework frame of ideas in our minds we i'll show you some of you on my projects that i do at work many of them are related to the topic of today's uh talk but some just stands on their own but i decided to show them because i

wanted to understand what kind of architectural projects that we people in our office have been produced producing for last 20 years my office is called dujinwan architects it's again named after my name you saw this house already this is ajihang the highly flexible hanok that can be turned into a movie theater such a small hanukkah so we were interested interested in creating multiple level of floors for example here underneath this sitting area these are our storage storage and above the kitchen we have an attic and

we turned into a small library so we turn we use a single physical space for three different functions and this is again a different way of achieving high level flexibility you know in a building this is a different hanok which we designed in um in the suburbs of the great great city of seoul this is a two-story hanoi which is actually quite new and the building lot the property is not really rectangular it's uh it's a heart-shaped piece of land but again it helped us to create a very uh uh the

unique uh house this is another building it's a contemporary design which literally faces the entrance of the changdok palace it's called nos terras it's in and the building is owned by actually one of my friend and his wife the way we design the building is based on this idea of spatial flexibility on one part of the wall can be completely open and closed so when you uh completely open the wall you have this beautiful uh panoramic view of the chandra palace but when if you close it then then you get a very different

interior view of the house and even from the kitchen you can see the main and main build entrance building of the chandra palace and i show you this building to you already this uh the sema hotel uh ho andre hanok annex of the six star luxury hotel the building in the middle is the main building designed by american architect richard meyer and the building the foreground is my own creation and again for this building we uh we incorporate we installed a large number of flying doors because we thought this part of the

hotel can not only use for regular guests but also can be used as a banquet and function space for weddings or parties or things like that so on a beautiful day like this all those doors can be folded and raised so that you have this nice transition between interior and exterior of this part of the hotel a picture on the left shows actually we did this architectural joke what we did was we we scanned a few paintings by a very famous korean traditional painter and we kind of collab we made a collage

using those images to create a perspective of this hotel but the owner really loved it so we sometimes we we continue to do that and this is a open floor or with organ with flying doors and this is a very actually contemporary style bathroom in the inside hotel and this particular building uh is called castle of skywalkers which is in chennai this is a training facility for a professional valuable team and i like to show you a video or youtube video clip of it please foreign and from the outside is a simple box

inside the buildings so did we go to what i talked about this afternoon the building also has a very high level of very interesting the reason for that is on a beautiful day like this create such a nice natural ventilation the sun outside the message oh so is in the traditional this is a small house that we designed in jeju island uh we have a video but because of time limit i'm not going to show it uh but again this house is also based on the concept of having a very flexible envelope so the the doors can be completely open

and I mean, luckily, we have Musk tonight, so the interior and exterior of the house can be very beautifully integrated. It's a different Hanok that we designed in the outskirts of Seoul called Villa H. Because the owner's last name is Huang, just like mine, so we decided to call this Villa H. So it's also about me. I think this is our latest project in Jeju Island as well. It's actually huge, the residential and the representational Hanok inside a tourist park. Okay, also this Hanok has a large number of flying doors as well.

So probably today, if the weather in Jeju Island is the same as the weather in Seoul, probably all these doors are open, allowing the air to freely come in, and they can enjoy the view outside from inside the house. They all all right. My mission as an architect is to somehow build a bridge between our tradition and the contemporary world that we live in. So every single building that we design, I hope that it becomes a living space accommodating various programs, often helped by the some of the ideas that we can learn

from the traditional Korean architecture. Thank you. All right, we are about four minutes late, but we'll start the Q&A session. If you have a question, you can use that raise hand button in your, I guess this is Zoom, right? Okay. One student has asked me what kind of material that we used for the valuable training center. I simply called it aluminum cladding, but more specifically, the material is called aluminum expanded metal. The reason for that is they start with a large sheet of aluminum and they

make cuts all across it in a very geometrical pattern, and then they pull both ends using the heavy machines. Then all these slots on the sheet of aluminum become an opening, and they become like what you saw on the screen. So the material is aluminum, and the name of the product is called aluminum expanded metal. And normally, it was a material meant to be used for civil engineering, for road walks and things like that. But when I first saw the material about 15 years ago, at about 10 years ago, at a Shanghai

Expo, I thought, gee, it's such a cool material. Maybe I can use it for buildings as well. And then later, I noticed that other architects had the same idea. So it's not just me, but there are many other architects who use that material as a very nice cladding for the exterior wall of the project. Any other questions? Uh, say it again. Okay, good question. Uh, there are a few ways you can start with a raw, untreated wood, but also you can pre-treat it, such as you can use chemical preservatives. You can soak the entire wood in a pool

of chemicals so that the chemical can be soaked into the tissue of the wood. That's one way of doing it. Another way is you burn the surface of it, you just smoke it, smoke the wood. It's a very time-honored way of preserving the wood. It has been done in many different corners of the world, in Europe, in Japan. So that's one, another way of doing it. And the third option is after you finish the building, you apply a coat of stain. So there are many ways of doing it. Next question, please. But actually, a lot of people in

my own field in Korea are now asking if not the same question, but a similar question: Are there a future for architects here in Korea? Because we, we have already passed the time in our contemporary history in which we build really, built really hectic, in a hectic way. But I think the overall quality of building is getting higher and higher in Korea. So I think there are futures for architects. As for young architects trying to get a job at architects' offices, I, I like to be a little encouraging. I mean, the

many offices are still hiring. So if you are concerned about just give it a try. Trends. Okay, again, as I said, even in my office, which is not quite big, we have all about 10 people. So we are a mid-sized company. These days, we work, we try very hard to create a building that can have, they can accommodate very different programs or functions based on the time of the day. And I call this kind of building a rainbow cake building, because rainbow cake, you have all different colors of layers. So normally, many buildings

have just one function. Offices are just offices from bottom to the top. Apartments are just apartments from bottom to the top. But in our office, we are trying to create buildings that have much more complex combination of different functions. Again, this is about the belief that I have as an architect to create a building which caters to the ever-changing needs of the society in a much more efficient and energy and material-saving way. So again, it has a lot to do with what I discussed today. It's a good question to think of.

I don't know, but I thought about it actually. And we, I think generally speaking, we in our culture, the use of monochromatic palette has been with us for such a long time. For example, again, if you look at Hanok, all you get to see just three colors: color with the root color of the white wall and color of dark gray clay tiles. But the common things among these three materials, they are the true color of the material. They are not coated, they are not layered colored, just like, you know, paint job. So because of this very simple color

palette, which has been with us for a very long time, I think use of very loud and the exuberant color palette is, we're not simply quite used to that. But again, things are changing rapidly. And the another aspect of it is, it really depends on how you look at the buildings. Many people tend to believe that buildings are on objects which should stand out, but in a bigger perspective, in an urban situation, many buildings are seen as as a collection, so they become background for other things, for example, people or cars.

And so that's one of the reasons why not just in Korea, but also in many parts of the world, many buildings are surprisingly monochromatic. And this kind of monochromatic buildings can work very nicely as background buildings. So they are not necessarily of bad things. Okay, that's the kind of future of cities that I'm imagining these days. Because if you live in Seoul or any other cities in Korea, or for that matter, any other cities in the world, what is normally taken for granted is you go to your work, you commute to your work

twice, and you and you come back home. So you make two journeys every day. And depending on how much time you spend for the journey and how much distance you have to cover between your work and home, your quality of your life can change dramatically. My rule of thumb for the ideal commute time, I think maximum is 30 minutes. If you commute more than 30 million one way, then you are ruining your life. You're spending way too much time just going from one place to another, and you have to do it again after work.

a little time, like an hour accumulated over a long period of time can become a big thing. So if you want to live a happy life, do your best to make your commute time short so that you can use the time saved for other things. But if you live in Korea, to have that kind of lifestyle, it's very difficult because many majority of buildings in Korea are built for just one purpose. So that's why we had to commit a very long distance. Korea, unfortunately, has the record of longest commute time among OECD countries. It's about 1.5

hours every day. So that's why Koreans are tired all the time. So as an architect, I like to contribute to the overall society's effort to create a city where people don't need to move them much during their everyday life. Over the weekend, you can go to, you can visit a far away place, that's fine. But everyday life, your travel distance should be kept to a minimum. But it's very difficult to maintain that kind of lifestyle in Korea because of all these hardwares we already have. So that's why I try very hard

to come up with an idea of buildings with very flexible way of using spaces. So I'm going to wrap it up and thank you for listening. And I think the sun is still up, so go out, enjoy the rest of the evening. Thank you.